Flavor in 2020 with John Brewer of Excalibur Seasoning

SPEAKER_01 0:00

If you don't incorporate new ideas and new flavor profiles into your meat case, then I think you start to lose footing in your uh in your your customer base.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Hi everyone, it's Nick Vorbegel from Lake to be the country meets, and I'm here with episode two of the Dinner Plus Drinks interview series. In this episode, we're talking with John Brewer, the Vice President of Sales and Marketing for Excalibur Seasoning, and we're looking at the world of flavor in 2019 and 2020. Excalibur Seasoning is one of our primary sources for seasoning blends, marinades, and ingredients for sausages here at Lake Geneva Country Meats. If you've ever had our ultimate steak and roast blend, they're the people that mix that for us. Excalibur is a family-owned business that spends a lot of time doing research into what flavors are trending, then they go ahead and develop those trends into seasonings that food processors like Lake Geneva Country Meats, some people smaller nuts, some people bigger, can use to put those flavors into foods that consumers like you can enjoy at home. In this interview, we get the story behind Excalibur seasonings, learn how John went from graduating butcher school to becoming the vice president of sales and marketing at Excalibur, and then we get into learning what Excalibur is working on for flavors. It's a great peek behind the scenes into how meat markets, grocery stores, and even larger meat packers decide what the next marinated product or sausage flavor that shows up on the shelves will be. Okay, let's go ahead and check in with John. Thank you so much for joining me today. Uh really appreciate you coming on the podcast. So uh how are you doing? It's afternoon, it's not super cold. You're a little further south than us, so what's the weather like?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Well, it's super cold, as a matter of fact. So this morning, yeah, it's it is in my book. So I'm not uh I'm not much the winter person, but I woke up this morning, I believe it was 16 degrees. It's warmed up, it's warmed up a bit since, but at least there's no snow on the ground yet, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

We're uh we're about 25 degrees somehow further north, and uh, I think that the change is it hasn't been super windy for us today, like it was yesterday, and that seems to make all the difference in the world.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

You are the vice president of sales and marketing for Excalibur Seasonings. Um, you guys are a pretty big seasoning company. Could you give us an overview of what is Excalibur and how the heck do you get to be a pretty big deal at a company that brings flavor to people?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Well, I uh that that is a multi-layered story, so I'll try to give you the condensed version, Nick. So I just celebrated my uh my 20th year with Excalibur. Congratulations. Thank you. Um Excalibur's been around since 1986. It was started by a father and son and uh geared towards serving the meat processing industry uh as we still are. Um when the company started out, I I actually have heard this story enough that I I feel like I've lived it myself. But uh father and son Jerry Hall and Jay Hall, they started mixing seasoning blends and buckets using uh uh a hand sealer to tie off the the unit packs. They would do that over the weekend, uh deliver and sell through the week. And uh that was back in 1986 when I came on board in in '99. Um they were on their second building, which um from what I understand was leaps and bounds above where their first building started. Uh from what I understand, there was carpet in the mixing room in the yeah, in the first building, in their very first building, which you can imagine is to today's uh standards go, that would obviously never fly. So they moved to uh bigger and better things. They were uh, I believe, the very first business to um build shop in uh Riverway Business Park here in Pekin has since grown around us in in leaps and bounds. We've added on, uh we added on to that building in uh early 2000. And we just we put another expansion on. I think it's been time flies, so I'm uh don't I I guess hold me to this, but I think it's been I think it's been six years since we did our last expansion. We have enough acreage around us to do two more and blueprints for the next one. So we've been we've been very fortunate in uh in our in our growth and the the meat industry in in general has been good to us. That continues to be our focus and and I don't see that that changing in the near future.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

So I actually remember your building because I can't remember exactly what year it was, but there was an American Association of Meat Processors Convention in Springfield.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

And yes, when I was growing up, that was our yeah, that was our vacation, and we gotta go see it. And the bus we took from Springfield to Pecan broke down. You were you were one of the casualties.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

I I remember that. I think we had uh uh kegs of beer on the bus as well, and I I hopefully that helped ease the pain. I was too young.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

I I was I think I was a middle schooler.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Well, I'm sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

It was it was unfortunate, but uh I've been to the facility, it's a you know, incredibly beautiful facility, no, no carpet on the ground anymore. Yeah, and you guys do uh a pretty big variety of seasonings. You do dry seasonings for uh bulk meat processors, marinades, wet seasonings, consumer-based things. Uh, but um how do how did you get to you said 1999. Yes, sir. Were you always somebody that was into food or into flavors, or how'd you end up at Excalibur? Because it's not, you know, like I'm gonna go sell insurance.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

No, and it's not one of those where you're uh when you're a little kid and you say, What do you want to do when you grow up? Well, I would I want to sell seasonings. You don't hear that very often, right? So no, not at all. I I started out as a uh meat cutter. I went to the uh actually a graduate from the National School of Meat Comp uh cutting in Toledo, Ohio, which is uh to my knowledge, it's been gone for many, many years. But um I started out as a meat cutter and uh worked my way up to meet uh a meat manager for a regional grocery chain based out of Indianapolis, Indiana. Excuse me. And from there, I took a job as a uh consultant serving uh the independent grocers that bought off Super Value. And I moved, I moved to Minneapolis, worked in their corporate office. From there, I took a job as a meat seafood director for um another regional grocery chain uh based out of Bellingham, Washington, Hagen Top Food. And from the time I was at Supervalue uh to the time that uh through my tenure at Hagen, I used Excalibur Seasoning. And I got to to be friends with uh Jay Hall. And he had asked me on a couple different occasions if I would ever consider coming to to work for Excalibur. And uh opportunity presented itself a couple years later, and I called him up and said, Yeah, I I think I would be interested in in taking the job. So, like myself, uh every member of our our sales staff has some form of protein background in their history, be it sausage making, be it retail meat, um, we're all meat heads, so to speak. And same as uh same as our customers that that we serve, including yourself.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

The Halls, um, well, Jay now. Um Jerry's no longer with us, but um, they're great people. And uh I think that would be uh a hard call to to resist if if Jay called and said, you know, we think you're someone that could work for us. He's uh he's a good guy to work for.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Well, a family business in general is uh a great place to be and a great place to to build a career because um you can see the directly the impact that you make um on an organization. And sometimes that's good, sometimes it's bad, but most most times it's it's uh it's it's rewarding. And it's I can't imagine going back into a large corporate setting. I've I've been there and um I can say that it's it's much, much better and again, rewarding on on the small business side to to have a direct hand in in the growth of a company.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

I agree. As a small business guy myself. So there's there's plenty of seasoning companies. Um, you know, there's some that are very very small and very focused on um, you know, this guy makes a hundred pounds of deer sausage for his buddy, we sell to him. There's some that uh if you don't want to order a hundred thousand pounds at a time, please don't you know look at us, let alone call us. That's right. And I think Excalibur is is uh nicely in the middle where you guys do some national grocery stuff, um some really cool things, and then you work with people like me who are uh a large small business, and then you work with people smaller than people that's right.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

And and so where where you fit, that's our our core business and and has been, and I I think will will continue at least in the near future. Um and and it's it's one thing that I can say about large retail business is that your your larger, large, huge volume customers, at least in in what I would consider huge in our world, if if something happens or they go away, um that that that really stings and things things take uh trends change. And you have directors in positions that uh go away. The next guy that comes in has a new vision and and may want to go with a a a different company. There's not much loyalty, is where I'm going with that. Um so it what our core business is, where our focus is, is uh it lines up with folks like yourself. And and in the scheme of things, we we are still a small seasoning company and and we operate as such. Yes, we we still service some some larger accounts, but the size that we are allows us to react very quickly. Our lead times are some of the the shortest in the industry. Uh we're able to uh turn development work very quickly and and service our customers the way they uh they service their customers. And that's that's that's what we try to line up with.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

And that's why I wanted to talk to you today, because we're looking at trends, at the at the future, you know, flavor. You guys do a ton of super flavorful things. Whenever I've asked you, hey, do you have this kind of on point flavor or something that's that's getting trendy? You guys have been able to to really help me out because you have that nice um nationwide kind of palette, if you will, different flavor experiences, and you guys are all experienced in protein, but still small enough to be to be nimble. So I wanted to ask you in in 2019, uh, I met with our sales rep Mick Rick McLimonds. Mick, Rick McLimonds, uh sausage guy, member of the Wisconsin Meat Hall of Fame, extraordinarily talented sausage maker. And I think in January he said, Hey Nick, these are some flavors you should look for. Uh, one of the things he he pushed on us was, you know, you should really try this Sichuan seasoning. Um, he pushed us a couple Asian seasonings. We put those in brats, and they killed it for us. Customers, uh, you know, that are listening to this podcast. You've probably tried either our gochu jung or a Sichuan brats, and they're delicious. Yes. So 2019, what are some things that um you looked at and said, you know, this is what we're gonna take a bet on? And and and what did you see was very popular this year?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Well, so it in the in the past, we've had very good success with liquor flavors, our Kentucky bourbon in particular. We we killed it on the West Coast for many, many years with that flavor profile. They were using them on tri-tips. So we took the success from that and tried to pair uh other flavors both on the sausage side and in in turn uh sauces, dry marinades that that you would vacuum tumble. And we had really good success with with the the liquor pairings. And and I don't I don't know that that's going away uh anytime soon. We just um are getting ready to launch for our 2020 trade show season some liquor flavors that that play right into that. Uh and in many different configurations, we've got um some patty mixes uh that will incorporate a liquor flavor or a beer flavor.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

So not just uh whiskey, but but rum, yes, tequila, things like that, wine.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Yes, that is that is correct. So it the the bourbon flavors tend to to really resonate with a a broad audience. We've got a uh Southern Sweet Kentucky bourbon sausage that we're we've got uh launching in 20, and we also have that same flavor in uh a marinade, a tumble marinade. And I'm looking at my list now.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Even Mike Beef roast, really.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Of course, of course, is perfect, perfect pairing. But uh the I I don't see in any any end to the popularity of sausage. It never it never ceases to amaze me that it's it's almost timeless. And in some of the the shops, as I I ride around with our our salespeople, it seems like uh how can we squeeze one more variety of a brat into the meat case, and then there it is. So that that's one thing that we we really try to focus on as we move forward is what's what's going to uh incorporate best into a fresh sausage. If that fresh sausage flavor uh takes off and kicks in, what what our lab and what our RD is able to do is we can put that that that popular flavor into uh a tumble marinade, into a dry rub. So so we can kind of hinge off the success of one. But again, I can tell you that uh the the sausage flavor profiles have been a really good launch pad uh for other configurations based on the success of that sausage blend.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

I think it's interesting when you uh mentioned the craft beer flavors, and I think what we've seen in the store is uh I'm our beer and line and liquor buyer as well as other things I do here, is craft beer has something called rotation nation, where it's just a new flavor every month. It doesn't necessarily matter how good or how bad it is, it just matters that it's different, it's new. And uh we've tried to accomplish that with sausage a little bit, not I mean, we have we have a standard, we want it all to be good, but something new, and that's always the challenge is you said how many more flavors can we squeeze into people? That's right. But you know, we've been going from we have the same 10 brats all the time to we have 30 brats, 10 of them are available all the time, and 20 get them while you can get them. That's right. Uh that's right. Is that something you've seen kind of with a lot of people?

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Absolutely, and we see it within our own line, and and what you're talking about is your your staples. You know, that's what that's what anchors that category for you new flavor internals into your meat case, then it's 10 I think you start to lose footing in your uh in your your customer base because people like to see things that are new, and to that end, maybe maybe you're you're only blending 10 to 20 pounds of a unique sausage blend in in a week, and and maybe you're shrinking a couple pounds of it, but what that what that does for the rest of your case is immeasurable because you have that variety and you have that choice. And with any new blend, and and as you well know, and I know for myself from being in the the retail meat background, you're going to shrink some before uh you get a product um up and moving. Uh you have to keep uh a full display out that looks like you want to sell it. And and that's what we tell our customers, keep a good variety out and and don't tease your customers with uh something that they can't come in the next time and get unless you're going to make just as you described, uh get it while you can. And and there's nothing wrong with that either. That I mean, look at the mick rib. I I hate to say that I look forward to uh I look forward to the McRib. It's delicious. Yeah, coming back into the the sales cycle. So I I think um with that it it creates some excitement in your meat case, and there's no better way to do that than introducing new flavors, be it a sausage, be it a marinade, uh, whatever category. But I I think you have to keep things fresh and exciting.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

We uh for us, the best example of that is we do a hatched chili pepper and cheese curd broth. And that was a a sausage that uh Rick gave me super great advice. And I actually we worked with you guys pretty closely on developing um that hatched chili pepper flavor because chili peppers are are big flavor tractors. Yes, they are uh right now, where a lot of people are enjoying the the flavor of different chili peppers, whether they're African, Asian, uh American, whatever, you know, where they come from. Um hatch are from New Mexico, and um they're usually roasted. And so we're able to work with you guys to get that perfect um moderately spicy but super roasty and still fresh, kind of hatched chili pepper, which is a unique flavor.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

And then we added a unique flavor.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

And uh that's that's a fun thing about um working with people like you is you're able to identify that you know, hatched chili pepper is a is a flavor that's doing really well. There's these these roasters outside of grocery stores. What is it that you see in the market or customer request or whatever that says we should try to make a hatched chili pepper seasoning for brats or chicken? Um, this is a flavor profile the general public is looking for. What makes you say this is something we should develop? And then how do you go from it? Would be really cool if we had a hatched chili pepper seasoning to a commercially available one.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Well, I'd it to to end, I think that's a a two-parted question. So as far as the as far as the the hatched chili pepper goes, it's it's amazing um popularity of that, even uh festivals and events planned around uh the harvest, right? So um to that end, we we try to keep our ear to the ground and then say, okay, what what can we do with this? How many different configurations um can can we make it work? Um as far as how how when rather do we decide to when or how do we decide to take a look at something and turn it into a flavor profile? Typically it starts with the customer. And um not always because uh we do have a very talented uh certified chef on staff that stays up with trends, but uh I would say the seven out of ten times it's driven by the customer request. And that's a customer saying, Hey, you know, I'm getting requests for this in my area. Can you turn uh something like this into a sausage season or a marinade? There's been uh excuse me, several times through throughout um my 20 years here that we've had the opportunity to to work with some very talented chefs that are employed by our larger retail customers. And in working And development of flavor profiles with them. Sometimes we work on things that never leave the bench and were very good and trending and continue to trend, but for whatever reason, they never left the ground. So because of that, we've got a really good catalog to draw from because these are products that we put a lot of time on the bench that tested out very well. But for one reason or another, they were trimmed from a line, and we're able to harvest from that. So I have to tell you that we pull a lot from our catalog of things that again maybe never saw the light. And we're we're able to pull from that, twist uh or tweak a flavor profile just a little bit to move it into whatever configuration uh we have a customer asking for or something that we may decide to market down the road. That's really interesting. Does that answer your question somewhat?

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah, it does. I think uh I think what a lot of people misunderestimate to borrow a phrase from a previous president, is um how hard it is to go from you're at home and you like we're gonna pull um go chujang, all right? So you like a gochujong type of uh steak, right? Right? Nice Korean seasoning. You have a little uh seasoning bottle, you can put a little bit of that on your steak to marinate it, and you get you got a great product. You go from a pound of steak to something like we would do where we want to make a go-chujang chicken breast, and we're gonna buy a marinade that will make 40 pounds at a time. Somebody bigger enough might want to make 500 pounds at a time. The amount of difficulty in scaling up that recipe, um, and the same thing goes, I always think craft beer is a good analogy because a lot of people like beer. Um, you know, to go from I made a five-pound batch at home or a five-gallon batch at home, home brewing, that was really good. And uh now I'm gonna be a commercial brewery and make 100 barrels to scale recipes up. So when I call you and I say, hey guys, uh it'd be really great if we could make a harissa seasoning. That's another one you guys did this uh 2019 really cool North African spice. How do you go from okay, this is what harissa tastes like? Because everybody can everybody knows what that is. You know, you go to Morocco and taste it. I shouldn't say everybody knows, but it's it's a standard. It is to say this is this is how you can make a a a blend that tastes good in five pounds of meat to this is a blend that tastes good in 50 pounds to 100 pounds. How do you how do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 24:49

How do we how do we scale up?

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, and how do you how do you even figure out, you know, we need this much salt and this much pepper and this much msg and this much okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

So to to that end, uh the it's really the the formulation won't change. So it it's just a matter of uh of of more of the seasoning blend, if I'm understanding your question, because the the the form the formulation just because you're making five pounds and say say, for instance, you want to run uh 5,000 pounds at a time, that formula won't change. So it's it's just a matter of uh of of scale, that simple. Is does that answer your question, or did I misunderstand?

SPEAKER_00 25:39

No, I think you got it. So, but you guys have great mixing capabilities too, right? Where I'm sure you have some pretty fancy machines that can get a pretty consistent even blend that's correct of all your different ingredients.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

I I don't I don't know if fancy is the right word because the the blenders, um it if uh you you may remember from touring our our plant, um, and I believe we had our our largest vent uh blender back then, it looks like a a large meat grinder. They're they're really very simple and and uh uh and effective. It's uh it looks to me, and and again from the meat background, like a mix or grinder, it's just a matter of scaling it up. Now, um that said, there there are some uh blends that are maybe heavier in aesthetics. And one thing that we don't want to do is is pulverize those aesthetics. So as we scale up and and go with the uh the larger size mixes, we have uh standard operating procedures in place so that the raw materials are blended in at the right time so that they're not not pulverized, so they come out consistent and looking the same, no matter if we're blending 100 pounds or 5,000 pounds at a time.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

That's really cool. So as you're looking forward to 2020 and beyond, what are some things that you guys are coming out with that you're really excited about?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Well, one thing that that I'm really excited about, and and it's we're calling it proper portion. So to talk talk a little bit about um what that looks like, as as we all know we're we're in a time where we're very fortunate, where um our unemployment rate is at an all-time record low. That's a good thing. What the what the problem is is uh finding labor, finding people that that uh are out looking for a job, and then in turn uh finding labor that has the skill level that you're looking for sometimes can be like looking for a needle in a haystack, as I'm sure you know as well. So uh with that, I think uh you know, if if I can go back in in my time, I remember going into the grocery store and going up to the meat counter, and there there may be um three or four butchers behind the counter and maybe an equal number of counterclerks that are waiting to help you. Those those days are uh I I won't say gone, but it's really tough to keep help behind the meat counter, especially if you're going to start talking value-added products. So what what what uh we thought about a couple years ago is okay, we're trying to sell this program back behind the the meat case to where it adds labor to where they don't have labor to put it on. That maybe that's shaking on a seasoning, maybe that's um pouring a sauce on, and and they just don't have time to do it. So what we came up with was a portion pack pre-measured seasoning program that the clerk can simply peel off a pre-measured portion of seasoning and wrap it up with the protein of choice that the customer chooses. So they it doesn't it doesn't add labor in asking, okay, what what type of seasoning would you like on that? And then uh they have to take a minute to shake that seasoning on, depending on the clerk. Uh maybe one shakes on a whole bunch of seasoning, maybe the next guy just gets on uh a little bit where the customer can't taste it at all at home. This eliminates that and serves two purposes because the proper portion, hence the name of the program, uh, it gets to go home with the customer. And then in turn, the customer gets to take a little bit of ownership in the process of preparation. So it's a it's a win-win. That that would be a program that I would say I'm most excited about um moving into 2020.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Are there any uh new flavors you're looking at rolling out or you know, regions of the world that you're like you think you know, African flavors are gonna be pretty popular, or we're gonna go back to Eastern Europe and you know load up on Hungarian sausages?

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Ethnic flavors continue to uh to surprise me in popularity. And and uh one flavor that we have coming out, it's a marinade, and it's a it's a Yuzu honey based marinade. And uh we our our sales staff, we had our um quarterly meeting uh a month or so back, and uh our our chef brought in her staff and prepared renditions of several new flavor profiles. And this was one of my favorite um was the Yuzu-based marinade, and it's uh it's a uh originist Japan. It's got a citrus fruit bite to it, and it's uh it's just fantastic. And I I think it's gonna be um one of our better sellers next year, especially for applications on chicken. We that sounds great. Yes, and uh it's it's one that you'll have to ask Rick about if uh if he hasn't already shared with you.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I I'm uh I'm writing an email right now. Rick.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Yeah, so it it we've we've got uh a smoked sausage blend that's coming out next year that's a smoked gouda ancho portobella.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

And that sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, I I uh I I it sounds sexy, right? So it sounds very sexy, I like it. Yeah, so I I think uh in in trying that one was fantastic. Um we also have uh a Chipotle green tea that is going to be in a smoked sausage configuration. So we we've got a really uh creative RD team, and I can tell you that we're we're fortunate to have uh them put these new products in front of us to sell. It's uh it's what keeps you in front of the customer and and key to key to growth.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

So you've been there since 1999. Um you said the ethnic sausages keep and ethnic flavors keep surprising you. Do you think you know, like uh have you seen a change in customer preference or willingness to try things since 1999? Are are people getting more exploratory? Is you know Asian flavor more of a uh generally accepted thing? Is African flavors now what Asian flavor was 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Well, in uh in seeing you, Nick, I'm uh I'm I know that you are part of the millennial crowd. I am I am one of those darn millennials. That's right. So uh the the millennial crowd, it I have to say, is really driving uh the the ethnic flavor profiles. They have uh uh they have a how do I want to say this? A uh uh a palate that that is um ready to try new things. Heat. We're fickle. Yes, uh heat is uh uh hot, spicy. It's uh really continues to to be popular. Hence you you had mentioned the uh the hatched chili pepper. So uh chipotle uh continues to be popular. But yeah, the the ethnic ethnic blends, I I think, in in my opinion, are are being driven and surprising to me by by the millennial crowd, and I don't I don't see that going away in in the near future.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

So we can uh wrap this up here real fast, but I just got a couple quick questions for you. What uh what is your favorite seasoning or flavor that Excalibur makes?

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Um I have two, and they're two. I like so they're staples on my countertop, um, our ultimate steak and roast rub. Oh, how can you beat it? And our smokehouse barbecue. I those are those are two that I I would say are are in my hand uh it when I'm home on it almost on a daily basis. The the steak and roast rub, you can literally put it on anything.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

So it's my my favorite thing with that is asparagus, grilled asparagus. I I just think it's such a and that's when you tell people like, oh put this on asparagus, and you get the look, and you're like, just just do it. Yeah, green beans, same same thing. Oh, yeah, green beans.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

What um over the past 20 years, what's the thing that um Excalibur as a company has done, or you've done as part of Excalibur that um you're most proud of, or thought we were really ahead of this, we really nailed this one.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

I'm gonna put just a moment of thought. I've got one, I've got one that I'm particularly proud of, and that is uh we were working with a large retailer, West Coast West Coast retailer and Safeway. And this this has been back in in I'll say 2000. So I hadn't been with the company very long, and we were working on a behind-the-counter program that would be uh a point of sale marinade program. In other words, similar to what I had just described with our portion packs, except when you went up to the counter, um, the customer would um pick out a marinade, and then in turn the the protein would go into a bag and they would pour a little bit of marinade on top of it. So we had been tasked with coming up with a better vessel, a better delivery vessel. And are you familiar with the um stable fuel stabilizer where the little bottle's got the spline that runs up the side of it? We originally had tried a pump program to where you you pump so many times and you get so many ounces to apply kind of like a snow. That's exactly right. What happened was is what we thought was a good concept or a good idea in the beginning turned out to be a disaster when we started testing it in stores because first off, the the clerks weren't weren't cleaning the the pump. So it looked like a ketchup bottle that had been in your refrigerator for a couple months, you know, when you open the lid. So that wasn't really appealing to uh to see back behind the meat counter. And then uh another problem that we had is that pump was creating a siphon. So certain certain flavor profiles, if uh if they were a little thinner in viscosity, it would start as siphon and it would just continue to run. So what we did was um came up with the idea that if we could find a bottle that worked like this little stable bottle that was food grade, that would solve all of our problems. And we hence found that bottle and launched our tip and measure program, our tip and port program. Um we sold it in by the truckload for many, many years in so many different flavor configurations. We still sell it. Not not as popular as what we once did, but to say that you've had the the same program out and with success for almost 20 years, I I think that would be that would be the one thing that's a standout for me.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Yeah, those tipping ports are great. We use those for a lot of our marinades, they're really nice. Yeah, they're consistent.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

And it's they're they're kind of novel, um, but they they do their job, and and uh that's again, that's a that's a program that that um we've polished up over the years and and uh change the flavor profiles, but ultimately it's uh the the soul of it, if you will, is is still the same as it was 20 years ago and and we're still selling it.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

And then my last question, so you're a bit spoiled for choice in that you get to have this access to all these different flavors and um you know get to make great food at home all the time, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

My wife and I are both good cooks.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

So yeah to someone who's listening to the podcast that enjoys cooking at home, um wants to try something new, but also doesn't want to screw something up, do you have any advice um or suggestions on ways that people can really discover new flavors without you know take a risk without taking a risk? Are there are there tricks that you like to use as as you're looking at your different seasonings that you think are are good ways to do things?

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Well, first off, I would not recommend that uh you get too adventuresome when you're inviting a company over and you're doing something for the first time. I I think if you're trying something that that you would consider a risk, that that it uh it'd be on a smaller scale, and maybe there's just one or two people so so you don't waste your your protein. But start simple. I I think in your in your cooking process, I I think is as few steps that uh uh a recipe might have is is is optimal. So I again I I think smaller scale, I I think things that are simplistic to begin with, and then build from there. I think if it's too complicated or there's too many steps, um it it especially depending on the skill level of the cook, it can it can open the door for disaster. But for the most part, I I think uh uh cooking to me is uh is an ad is an adventure, is something that um we do inside and out. Um I shovel snow to get to my grill. Um as I'm I'm sure so again, I I think just keep it keep it simple and and uh don't be afraid to try new things, you know. Up until uh a couple years ago, and I still have a hard time pronouncing it uh gochi chang, gochi chong, and I I sell it and still have a hard time pronouncing it. Never would have tried that, but um, since we introduced it as a flavor profile, uh I have to say it's one of my favorites. So I guess my advice would be don't don't be uh afraid to be adventurous.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

That's awesome. Um, John, thank you so much for for your time, your expertise. We really appreciate it. And uh yeah, we'll be talking to you soon. Can't wait to see what 2020 and beyond holds for Excalibur Seasonings and what we can all do together.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Thank you, and thank you again for uh for having me and and most importantly for your your continued support in business.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

I'd like to send a big thank you to John for taking the time to do the interview with us. I really appreciate it and his expertise. It's something that we can't get from other people. I really hope you found the interview interesting and that it provided just a bit of a glimpse into how our development process works. We get lots of questions about how we come up with ideas for sausage flavors, uh, and I think this interview helps provide some perspective into that, as well as talking about some of the flavor profiles you might expect in 2020. That uh Yuzu Honey marinade is probably something we're gonna try. There are two more podcasts coming in the series of 2019 Look Backs and 2020 Lookaheads. We have Jeff Siegel looking at wine coming on Saturday, and Travis Doxdill talking meat on Monday. In between those two episodes, we'll have the first episode of our new weekly Dinner Plus Drinks podcast featuring co-host Bridget and myself talking about food, drinks, and life. We're coming on New Year's Eve, so you can be sure there's gonna be a little bit of festive chatter and maybe some bubbles discussion. We're gonna leave it there for this episode. I hope you're enjoying this series and subscribe to the podcast to keep getting these interviews in your feed. We also really appreciate feedback and ratings. We're just relaunching this, so we'd love to hear what you think. If you'd like to send us a message with the feedback or ideas on interview guests that you'd like to hear, you can send us an email to hello at dinnerplusdrinks.com or just go to dinnerplusdrinks.com, click on an episode page, and fill out the contact form. Love to hear from you. I'm Nick Forfagel. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this episode. We'll talk again soon. Cheers.